So just retcon it all...
That appears to be Marvel's way. Just spit in our faces and retcon it all.

Posted by HiddenVorlon on 2008-10-06 19:16:56
1980s readers and today's readers
I won't argue with the liberal approach towards continuity. There was likely a good deal of freedom to, not necessarily ignore, but show a respectful indifference to past continuity in the 1980s.

However, I would argue that the current comic book market is a different market, a broader market, today as comics have entered the mass media in ways that were unmatched in the past via movies, television, and alternative literature such as the rise of the graphic novel.

Most important to the changing market is the internet and digital media. Digital comics via this website and through DVD-Roms (the one thing I am sure Fetsur and I have something in common, we both own the ASM complete collection on DVD) has bridged the gap between current issues and the wealth of stories from the past.

This has made continuity increasingly important.

Also, the availability of back issues from internet sellers such as e-bay has contributed to this demand for adherence to continuity.

I personally have amassed a collection of nearly 90% of all Spider-man issues (of varying quality of course mostly fair or good for those earlier than issue #200) and have fostered a new connection with my father through it.

I am familiar with Rocket Racer and the Spot, lame as they were. I appreciate Peter's time in college and liken the trouble of paying for it with my own. I was a teaching/research assistant to pay for grad school. Although ripped from a different time we can still identify with these stories. It also fosters the market for back issues that boost up business at your local comic book store.

In addition, as a social scientist in urban planning, I am fascinated at the dress style and pop culture of NYC from the 1970s and 1980s that are well depicted in the comic books from the time. Just as they are well depicted in comic books today.

Continuity matters now more than ever.

Make mine Marvel

Posted by coolhanddave on 2008-10-06 20:10:40
Post Script
Another difference between readers of the 1980s and today is that, and I am speaking anecdotally, today's readers won't grow up...and I mean that in a positive way.

Comic books in the past were a fad for pre-teens and teens as it was for my father. Now, however, speaking mostly for myself, readers buy over the course of decades. I did drop off for a couple of years in the mid to late 1990s.

But I am back with the extra spending power to back it up.

And my spending power asks for a greater adherence to continuity.

I'd vote for an official in-house Marvel Comics Historian.

Represent.

Posted by coolhanddave on 2008-10-06 20:31:18
I disagree.
I think continuity matters considerably LESS than it ever has. Rather, it matters about as much as it did when Stan and Jack and Steve were kicking things off in the early 60's. You take the good, you leave the bad, whatever you need as a reader or a creator to get a great, NEW story.

Posted by Gentleman Jack on 2008-10-06 20:36:25
Actually, that's a great idea.
Dave--- I like the historian idea. Peter Sanderson is badly missed.


Posted by Gentleman Jack on 2008-10-06 20:37:11
I guess what it comes down to for me is this: is the quality of the story enhanced by the use of a 20 year old character? A good story is a good story. Brubaker brought back 50's Cap, but it works because it's a good story.

And I think the Earth X trilogy proves that you can make the insane depth continuity work for you. I got a friend of mine to start reading comics by giving him that series, it was the first comic he had ever read. To him it wasn't continuity, it was just story. But I guess I don't know how that sold. Do you have any stories or thoughts about that series?

Posted by kyle-latino on 2008-10-06 20:39:06
History and access
First off, I accidentally clicked on somebody's "flag this response as offensive," my bad.

We cannot pick and choose what gets woven into the fabric of storytelling for a couple of reasons.

First, good writing is subjective and there is just too much room to argue over whether things like Maximum Carnage, Captain Universe, and the six arms thing should go into continuity based on subjective opinion of quality.

Second, we need to know what is or isn't part of cannon. Unless we are told on a regular basis what is to be considered canon than we need to include everything under a title -- there is room to have miniseries outside of the standard canon of the regular title.

History matters.

Posted by coolhanddave on 2008-10-06 20:53:41
Five Year Rule
It was interesting to me as I read Tom's blog that coolhanddave expressed the same exact thing I was thinking in terms of the DVD-Rom and the availability of comics via the internet. I think given the fact that any arc or story line can literally be accessed at the click of a few buttons on the computer now makes continuity especially challenging (but very important). I think with computers and today's technology, there are more people than ever that are reading the entire collection of these stories as a whole and therefore, you have more people that are up in arms regarding continuity issues and wanting things to stay within I guess what is considered canon. The characters remaining true to their origins becomes very important to the readers who have invested a lot of time either collecting or simply enjoying re-reading the series through the DVD. These stories are more fresh in people's minds than ever. To me, the five year rule kind of goes out the window because of our technology. I only read the entire series on the DVD this past winter so the history is very fresh in my mind and the characters are very close to my heart - the same as it is for people who have been long-time readers. The fans want new stories but I think changing well loved characters so drastically kind of ruins the fun for everyone so as coolhanddave put it, I think the history really does matter.

Posted by 3spiderfanz on 2008-10-06 21:42:16
And another thing
You're not "dragging 45 years of history." It's a great history, be proud of it.

Be explicit. Make a statement to your fans. The Amazing Spider-man is the definitive history and it is what matters. Everything else is unrelated unless you explicitly say so. Such as the awesomeness that is Ultimate Spider-man, it clearly is not the Amazing Spider-man, we're not confused.

It's the year long crossover that are confusing. When I bought the six issues of the Infinity Guantlet, I didn't need to buy 40 other issues for the story to make sense and be complete.

Make mine Marvel

Posted by coolhanddave on 2008-10-06 22:40:40
I agree and disagree
Well I’m going to be honest I cant speak for the market because well I’m not in the marketing analyzing business, also I cant speak for the public because I don’t do (PR) Public Relations for them or your company. I can’t speak about the times because I’m not really that old, and I can’t tell you what its like on the inside track because I’m outside of the box.

What I can tell you is my continuity with comics as a sole consumer started when I was 10 as a collector and I’m still collecting until now at 33 but as a mature reader. To me nothing has changed only its appearance and packaging, but I think the essence of what is being distributed finds itself on the shelves. As a child I had less money but picked up a lot of comics to read because I loved the stories, and still do by the way sometimes we get some great stuff and some times we don’t but life’s not perfect. Now instead of buying the 10 issues I would have as a kid I buy statues, Cdroms and hit the conventions, so I spend the same money if not more on items that are related to those stories and characters I enjoyed reading up until today. You know after 23 years of collecting comics and memorabilia and still loving it.

Unfortunately I don’t think there is a five year rule at least I hope there isn’t …. 5 years what is that? its so static and precise…if we’re going to start that up then what’s to say there isn’t a 10 year rule? Oh and I remember all the storylines from everything I have ever read so if there was a comic book jeopardy I would be winning it. If you missed a couple of books then hey You pick it up at the comic store that’s what those huge bins are for or make life easier for yourself pick up the CDRom that contains all 5000 issues you wont be complaining anymore.

Think of it like this if you can afford to just have one comic then be happy, because there are countries where they don’t even know what a comic book is, what it looks like or just cant afford it. Enjoy it I do.

Posted by terciera on 2008-10-07 03:15:58
eat the truck
...continuity and memory...
that's why Adam Warlock is playing with a video-cam with her friend Mantis in space...

Posted by bulgarianyogurt on 2008-10-07 09:15:57
and Captain America is the name for the legacy of guys who spend a decade minim frozen in ice ? I 'd like you to know one thing :
what you are doing is EASY.

A new Cap, the deaths of Iron Fist/Moonknight/Invisible Woman, every stories about an absolute beginner or an apocalyptical end , I'm not against a jump in time or two -you know that- as in 'Old Man Logan' or 'Iron Fist' , BUT IT spares you the WORK of WRITING STORIES about connoted characters.
What you're talking about :'The theory was that even among the hardcore audience there was enough turn-over so that, by and large, any stories that were more than sixty months old had been forgotten' is a reality of the MARKET.
Bussiness here.
You can spare us your gargarisms about authorism too.

Posted by bulgarianyogurt on 2008-10-07 09:26:45
continuity is important it doesnt matter if it was 5 or 15 years ago and to say it isnt is yet another way to slap the paying customers in the face. I agree that some readers will not know of continuity if they have not read it but that is why i am constantly reading back issues and i think most people do that. You can defend what you have done in spiderman all you want and how want (such as this doing it so subtlely) but numbers are falling and you are loosing more and more buyers everyday. I know a guy who dropped 8 titles yesterday. Its your choice to hang on to the hubris that is causing fans to leave I just wouldnt call it a smart choice.

Posted by spiderFAN1984 on 2008-10-07 09:42:27
So basically...
We're just wasting money and trees on a conglomeration of pretty pictures that ultimately has no meaning because it will be retconned later.

Posted by Aziroth on 2008-10-07 11:34:33
Continuity sucks
I hate how readers always want their "Continuity" to be kept perfect by EVERY creator/writer/artist there is. It doesn't freaking matter! Make up your own continuity. As long as it makes sense to you, and you like the characters, read the comics. If not, go watch TV or anything else!

Posted by pineappleprotein on 2008-10-07 11:41:37
Anti-Continuity 'followers are sucking
you get the idea.

Posted by bulgarianyogurt on 2008-10-07 12:08:27
OHOTMU and more...
Perhaps the arbitrariness of the 5-year rule is what necessitated the OHOTMU (though, more likely, the ability to sell such a thing was the determining factor in its creation). I've always considered the histories in the deluxe edition of the OHOTMU to be set in stone, and everything since then to be more ephemeral. There is probably some rational defense for this attitude that I could muster, but really it has more to do with the timing of my growth as a reader-- not unlike the "if they didn’t read it, to them it was never published" attitude noted by Tom.

Related: Writers are sometimes befuddled when readers complain about the treatment of an underutilised or long-forgotten third-stringer. It's easy to forget one aspect of the "mature" reader's history: His entire collection growing up was probably about the size of what he now buys in a single year. Sometimes it's not what you don't buy, but what you do. I have a particular affinity for Meteor Man/Looter for no other reason than I read an issue of Marvel Team-Up in which he appeared four dozen times-- and I didn't even have the next issue that concluded the story! (I do now, thanks for asking.) There will always be somebody upset about (what they consider) mischaracterization or other continuity gaffes not (only) because of their perception of the character as a whole, but precisely because of a very focused nostalgiac investment.

Me, I loves the continuity not just for depth of realization, but for the possibilities that can be drawn from it.

Posted by jakesaint on 2008-10-07 12:26:46
I agree totally with jakesaint.
I don't like rather being insulted about something I feel important by someone ( maybe well-located and bringing a promotion ) who doesn't think the same way.I don't have a problem if a book who was for a time in my taste changed, comics is like the other things, maybe there are ones who are'nt for me anymore.
But if we can't explain what we like or didn't like, what can we say exactly ?
You made this blog to explain certain rules and ...that's all ?
Like it or not, it 'll be the same ?

Posted by notapotatoe on 2008-10-07 12:40:21
continuity
The recent Annhilation crossovers contain a lot of elements from old continuity. I prefer a writer who is willing to do a little research over one who just does whatever he wants with characters regardles of what has come before.


I could understand the objection to maintaining continuity if it required a lot of work but thanks to the internet there are fan sites and wikipedia entries for every character Marvel has ever introduced. All of the writers and artists have access to the internet so there is nothing preventing them from taking the time to look things up before starting a story.

It's not like they have to dig through thousands of issues to look information up anymore.

Posted by izzatrix on 2008-10-07 14:12:47
I agree that continuity is important. A lot of series now (Avengers: The Initiative comes to mind) bring back characters who havent been used in quite a while. This is a real treat for fans of older comics, and for newer readers (like me), its fairly simple to look them up on wikipedia and learn their backstory.

On another note, does it seem like a lot of Brevoort's entries are indirectly justifications for OMD?

Posted by megamile15 on 2008-10-07 16:24:39
In all honesty, Megamile...
Yes, they do seem like defences for OMD.

As for you pineappleprotein, when people are spending their hard-earned money on any kind of medium that incorporates sequels and story-telling (especially in THESE times), most people want a consistant continuity.

Posted by Aziroth on 2008-10-07 18:07:13
my two cents worth
This isn't really news. Reading the blog "the life of Reilly" about the Clone Saga, it was Harris's philosophy that he wasn't going to be bound by something "published twenty years ago". He had what he thought was a great story to resolve the clone saga and move Spider-Man forward. He didn't want to have to bend and twist that story to make if "fit" something from 1973.

As far as "selective continuity" goes, I admit I have it. I have my own canon of Spider-Man comics that's slim enough for my liking, but large enough that I can go back and re-read without losing interest. If there's something I don't like I throw it out. I also have a couple of what I call "What If" collections of a few story arcs that don't fit into my Spider-Man canon, but are good enough story-and-art that I like reading them.

Also, I do agree that many of Brevoort's blog's seem like justifications for OMD/BND. Now I don't care for OMD/BND but I'm no hater. After all, comic books are a source of ENTERTAINMENT, nothing more or less. Each of us has to decide what does or doesn't entertain us individually. Its a personal choice. From OMD/BND forward I've not bought any ASM and it doesn't look as though I will. Now if OMD/BND is your cup of tea, by all means enjoy.

Posted by Mardochaeus LXX on 2008-10-07 18:36:13
Entertainment
I won't argue that many find comic books as an art form or media of literature.

BUT...

This is modern mythology. It is an accepted form of literature that deserves preservation and academic study. This particular medium deals with complex human issues that many can relate to.

The separate epochs of this art form represent the artists' view and critique of modern history. Each issue is a monthly allegory of society.

The artists no doubt take their inspiration from their real life surroundings. Comic books reflect who we are.

I don't expect every reader to take this as seriously as I do, but I definitely expect it from the artists and editors.

Discuss.

Posted by coolhanddave on 2008-10-07 19:33:03
I don't think fans have a 'selective continuity' awareness in the way you've addressed. If anything, alot of fans know more about a certain era than others and go with what they know, but if certain events or people outside their knowledge happened and was brought up wrongly, they would want it set right too.

It's not that they don't know or don't care what's in their preferred era, it's what they are aware of that they'll take most interest in.

I also think that the five year rule doesn't quite work in this day and age. It's not because fans are older, more aware or more interested, it's also because the stories take longer to execute. What used to be done in one comic takes three or four these days (generally, but not always the case). Stretched out stories mean less goes on in the same amount of realtime, meaning a story that was made five years ago is more relevant to the series than that same span of time if the comic was made in the 60's, 70's 80's or even 90's.

Posted by DRock1 on 2008-10-07 19:47:14
Its a combination of problems....
I view modern comics as a problem where continuity is concerned because writers don't seem to care how badly written and out of continuity the characterizations become. The bigger names who made their star in another field or different genre are often the worst, I might add. They just want to make their stories, regardless of how many times they have to go against the history of story and characterization that have come before them. As someone else said previously, given the amount of information readily available via the web, it's inexcusable for writers to claim ignorance on the details of this stuff, and its insulting to the readers who have taken the time to find out the information for themselves, whether a long time reader or a new one.



Posted by The Demon Hunter on 2008-10-07 20:51:51
For some recent examples of the power of continuity in storytelling, look no further that Agents of ATLAS and Avengers: Initiative. Atlas tells is own self-sufficient story interweaving and shedding a new light on tales told in nearly every era of Marvel History (from the Atlas day to the Quasar 90s to Civil War) while A:I reads as a living, breathing OHOTMU. Story and continuity are not mutually exclusive. One of the most effective moments in the A:I run thusfar has Thor Girl bowing before Mirage as an honored Valkyrie. Readers need not have read the previous tales to appreciate the gravity of the gesture but longtime readers and the "life" of the character are rewarded for it. Plus, it points contemporary fans to favored stories by their favored creators. Win, Win. But, then you also have a situation where closely-knit books like NA, MA, and Si and its spin-offs highlight continuity errors (eg. a headscratching common timeline perpetrated by the same writer) and the deficiencies of a shared universe when handled haphazardly.

Posted by hamgravy on 2008-10-08 14:03:59
Two types of continuity respect - don't confu
There are two ways of respecting continuity. There's the type that hinders new readers - you know the sort of thing - picking up plot points from 1976 and crafting a six-issue arc expanding and dwelling on it. Me? I love it, but then I was reading comics in 1976 - more than likely I know the plot point being referenced.
But, quite rightly, in my opinion, many readers say that it is too self referential and blocks entry for younger readers.
Why can't we have the best of both worlds where writers don't mine past continuity for their stories. but don't annoy older fans by contradicting it either!
The biggest continuity problems tend to be from writers who try to reference a 20 year old story and get all the details wrong - why bother doing it if you can't get it right?
Just look ahead and craft new stories. If it contradicts old events, let the editor point it out and work out how to make it work - don't make a story out of it, just keep things consistent behind the scenes.

Posted by davidspofforth on 2008-10-12 07:15:45